I say 50/50 fault

"Takuro Spirit" (takurospirit)
05/27/2016 at 17:48 • Filed to: caught on dashcam, dashcams, asshats, tailgating

What do you think?

Pilot at fault for brake checking? Legacy (cam car) at fault for tailgating?

Keep in mind that he’s a LOT closer than it looks due to the nature of a wide angle dashcam lens.

DISCUSSION (61)

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:50

Didn’t see this yesterday?

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/honda-pilot-dr…

Denver is too damn high > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:52

I put a lot more on the pilot.. shoulda moved over earlier -plenty of space.

But phuck tailgaters

E90M3 > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:52

I still standby what I said last night

Steve in Manhattan > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:53

I’d say nearly all the fault lies with the driver in the car in front. You don’t jam on your brakes to stop them tailgating, you tap them. Or just move over and let the idiot by.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:55

The Pilot driver being a complete asshole does not relieve the Legacy driver of the obligation to be able to control his car.

HammerheadFistpunch > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:56

Pilot, or at least 80/20

Trunk Impaired 318 > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 17:58

Definitely more the Pilot drivers fault. Yes the camera car is tailgating pretty bad but brake checking is beyond inexcusable.

I say 65/35.

Chariotoflove > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:09

Both responsible. Too bad he didn’t hit the Pilot’s tail so they could both suffer consequences.

E92M3 > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:12

They are both assholes!

His Stigness > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:16

Nope, based on the vehicle code in California, which will be similar to that in MI, the Subaru is more than 51% at fault. He was following too closely, and then made an illegal turning motion when he swerved and lost control. The Pilot can be cited for reckless driving/road rage, but the Subaru will be found at least 51% at fault.

Case closed.

Sneaky Pete > haveacarortwoorthree2
05/27/2016 at 18:16

This, unfortunately.

MuchWagon > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:19

The Subie is speeding, tailgating, and spun out without contact.

What was the question again?

Honeybunchesofgoats > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 18:21

I agree, although I confess that when I’m in a bad mood, I just take my foot off of the accelerator. People usually get the message after shaving off about 5mph.

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:21

I thought you guys had left lane travel laws....

Dusty Ventures > HammerheadFistpunch
05/27/2016 at 18:22

I’m going to say 66/34 Pilot due to the fact that the Subaru driver decided to return to tailgating after the first brake check. If a driver has already demonstrated themselves to be a psychotic asshole with no qualms in making you crash, deciding to park less than 30 feet off their back bumper is digging pretty deep into the bad idea hat

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > Sneaky Pete
05/27/2016 at 18:22

yea, unfortunately...

oddly also, if it wasnt a suby, i dont think he would have spun like that...

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > His Stigness
05/27/2016 at 18:23

51% is good and close enough to 50/50 lol

Milky > Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud
05/27/2016 at 18:27

We do. In Michigan (where this took place) it’s “keep right except to pass”.

HammerheadFistpunch > Dusty Ventures
05/27/2016 at 18:28

I skimmed

Steve in Manhattan > Honeybunchesofgoats
05/27/2016 at 18:31

And, my lawyer brain tells me that the outcome depends on state law. Lehto will know more, but some states put 100% of the liability on whatever party is found guilty. Some states have contributory negligence (if I recall correctly from my torts class - you can be 70% responsible, the other party 30% responsible, and the blame is split that way.

MuchWagon > Milky
05/27/2016 at 18:31

The pilot is passing, just not at ludicrous speed. It passes the pickup (taco?). And look ahead, a long line of cars in the left lane.

Honeybunchesofgoats > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 18:34

Lawyers always have to ruin everything .

MuchWagon > Chariotoflove
05/27/2016 at 18:37

All the Honda driver needs to say if there is contact, if anything, is “I thought I saw something in the road.”

The Subie was less than half second behind. There were no strange circumstances here.

Urambo Tauro > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 18:38

This camera is not displaying a speed reading. How do you determine speeding?

(BTW, I suspect you’re right; I’m just curious about the method.)

GasolineLollipop191 > haveacarortwoorthree2
05/27/2016 at 18:40

People should realize that even though the left lane is for passing when encountering a left lane bandit the wise move is to pass them on the right or slow down. Tailgating in any circumstance is idiotic.

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 18:41

america needs autobahn rules

His Stigness > Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud
05/27/2016 at 18:44

For the insurance, which is really what matters, it’s not. If you’re 51% at fault you’re technically 100% at fault.

The Subaru is to blame for this accident, plain and simple.

Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:52

“You know, I can see why she’s feeling a little weird about this.”

Dark Side of the Rainbow kinda timing.

tromoly > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:52

This was posted yesterday.....

JDIGGS > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 18:55

I can’t say from the footage if the guy in the Subie is tailgating a bit or not.

LET ME EXPLAIN SOMETHING. When someone takes offense at how you are driving and then purposefully causes an accident that would have never otherwise happened, they are 100% at fault, duh.

Rube americans get no drivers education or teaching on how to use the fast lane, if you were going that slow in left lane in germany you’d be run down like a pigeon.

JDIGGS > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 19:05

If you are in the left lane and there isn’t someone in front it’s your responsibility to move over. It’s actually the law but most people are lazy undereducated and downright despicable. Since you seem to be venturing dangerously close on this let me help you with your thought process.

You don’t ever tap your brakes you say

“hey i’m being an inefficient arrogant prick, I’m going to try and suppress my huge massive fucking ego and follow the law moving over so everyone can get where they are going and keep the road from being congested and infinitely more dangerous.”

“HEY THIS GUY IS DRIVING TOO CLOSE TO ME AND I PERCEIVE THAT AS DANGEROUS SO I’M GOING TO SLAM MY BRAKES AND ACTUALLY MAKE IT SO THAT HE DOES HIT ME, BECAUSE I’M AFRAID FOR MY OWN SAFETY”

Grow the fuck up people

Sam > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 19:10

Subaru is 100% at fault. All the court will care about is his illegal and reckless lane change which resulted in a crash. The Honda has no real part in the accident, especially since the Subaru has already shown he can slow his car without crashing when being brake checked.

MuchWagon > Urambo Tauro
05/27/2016 at 19:18

Total guesswork, but traffic is moderate and doesn’t appear impeded significantly, the Honda is passing, and the Subie catches up quickly.

Flavien Vidal > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 19:18

Both are at fault, but only one does something with an intent to hurt the other. From a judicial point of view that makes a LOT of difference. One is stupid, the other a maniac.

So in term of “punishement”, I’d say 90/10... Subaru deserves a fine, Honda should spend some time in jail for causing a crash on purpose and running away from the scene of the accident that he caused.

JDIGGS > His Stigness
05/27/2016 at 19:18

Pretty sure this is not the case. You are viewing this as if the person in front had to make a stop or slow down. Also saying he made an illegal turning motion is idiotic and has no basis nor makes any sense. There is video evidence the person was deliberately trying to cause an accident, this could easily be considered attempted assault w deadly weapon / vehicular man salughter.

Nobody here has a real clue of his actual speed / following distance including myself.

You seem to think that even if the subaru is found to have been following to closely or perceived as reckless driving this somehow clears the honda from a reckless driving charge or worse. Whose insurance ends up paying may have no relation to which drivers end up with heavy fines, loss of license or criminal charges.

As a human being I hope you can see that when you do something to use your car as a weapon and purposefully cause an accident for no reason except to “voice” your displeasure indeed you are at fault vehicle codes aside.

Another problem with CA, they should allow guns in car imo and people will behave properly instead of pretending they are in a video game.

MuchWagon > Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud
05/27/2016 at 19:19

What are they? I’ve never been.

JDIGGS > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 19:20

yeah except there is a video so that doesn’t fly.

Katsumoto > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 19:40

The Pilot is a douche that needs to realize the road isn’t specifically built for it.

The Subaru is partially at fault for going back into a tailgate and learned his lesson.

I think its 80/20 Pilot 80.

A big giant steel push bar on my work truck solves most of issues with left lane hogs. They see it coming along with the trailer loaded and move. If they attempt a brake check, I give them the train horn.

Urambo Tauro > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 19:43

Rats. I was hoping you found some kind of technique to it.

I was thinking that maybe DOT sets those broken lines one second apart (when travelling at the designated speed). But that’s just a hunch; I haven’t confirmed it.

Monkey B > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 19:50

Zero excuses given for anyone who brake checks, ever. This is yet more evidence. No argument is valid, the risk involved always outweighs the risk with being tailgated. Especially since the solution is likely as easy as moving over and exiting a situation that makes you uncomfortable.

Fuck this guy.

MuchWagon > JDIGGS
05/27/2016 at 20:19

Doesn’t matter if it’s not there... the Honda driver has a right to brake. Everyone is mixing up the perceived intention to brake check with the driver’s prerogative to use the brake pedal.

The Subie driver follows too closely, encounters a perceived brake check, and DOES IT AGAIN.

I can’t even believe he let the video out. If I’m a Michigan State Trooper or this guy’s insurance agent I’m tracking this shit down. Here is where I start to wonder what he told the Trooper or his insurance company.

MuchWagon > JDIGGS
05/27/2016 at 20:22

The following distance is not a mystery, I count it at less than half a second and anyone who cares to load this into iMovie can figure it out quite accurately.

MuchWagon > JDIGGS
05/27/2016 at 20:24

Did you take American drivers ed?

McMike > Takuro Spirit
05/27/2016 at 20:37

Keep in mind that he’s a LOT closer than it looks due to the nature of a wide angle dashcam lens.

Wide angle or not, you can count off time using the stripes.

Dude was CLOSE. Like .3 sec close.

His Stigness > JDIGGS
05/27/2016 at 20:45

If you actually read my comment you might see that I wasn’t implying the Honda was in the right at all.

The Honda by braking violently and for no reason is in violation of CA VC 23103. With this video evidence he can be cited after the fact for reckless driving.

But, the Subaru driver is at fault for the accident because the accident was caused by him violating CA VC 21703 which does not state a specific distance to keep from other cars only because that depends on the speed. The drivers handbook estimates for distance, but it also varies by the conditions. As someone familiar with the CA VC and things like this it is clear the Subaru driver was following too closely and would be cited for violating section 21703.

Also, my argument that he made an illegal turning motion is in fact 100% correct. I’ll forgive your ignorance though since this is the Internet.

Per CA VC 22107 he made an “unsafe turning maneuver” which is a term used in law enforcement for basically any turning motion which causes you to crash. It is also used for illegal Lane changing, as the section states any turn must be made safety and with prudence, and using your turn signal. None of that happened. By swerving suddenly he did not make a safe turning maneuver and that caused him to crash.

So in the eyes of the insurance the Subaru is at fault for the accident, but the Honda driver can be cited for reckless driving with this video in California. But the Subaru driver can also be cited for those other violations I mentioned.

The Honda driver won’t be charged with “manslaughter” though, or assault; everyone that keeps bringing this up needs to calm the fuck down. Vehicle codes generally define reckless driving, and that’s what you’re cited with.

And we should allow guns in our cars?!? Are you fucking kidding me?!? I really hope that was a joke because if not I feel bad for you.

His Stigness > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 20:48

It’s not really the seconds that count, it’s the estimated car lengths. Both MI and CA have similar language for following distance, and they say it should be reasonable and prudent for the conditions and speed. The drivers handbook in CA tells drivers approx how many car lengths you should leave at what speed, but less than one car length at highway speeds is obviously way too fucking close.

I also find it funny how the guy you responded to thinks the Honda should be charged with assault or manslaughter or something ridiculous. It's reckless driving, plain and simple.

smobgirl > Urambo Tauro
05/27/2016 at 21:00

Stripes are 10 feet long, someone who felt like doing math could probably calculate the speed and following distance if they wanted. I have too much of a headache for math right now though.

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > MuchWagon
05/27/2016 at 21:01

one specific rule is that if a car flashes you when you are in the far left lane, YOU MUST move to the right lane as soon as safely possible... Dont know how its enforced though, but it just works well over there... then again, das germans, they actually follow rules...

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > His Stigness
05/27/2016 at 21:01

true... hopefully he had more than just liability... but gosh that pilot was a dick...

Urambo Tauro > smobgirl
05/27/2016 at 21:26

That measurement is a guideline from the MUTCD . There’s some wiggle room, but the tolerance is unclear.

Broken lines should consist of 3 m (10 ft) line segments and 9 m (30 ft) gaps, or dimensions in a similar ratio of line segments to gaps as appropriate for traffic speeds and need for delineation.

(emphasis mine) This seems to suggest that the lengths may change with speed.

Steve in Manhattan > Honeybunchesofgoats
05/27/2016 at 21:52

Well, sometimes we can solve your problem. At any rate, I haven’t practiced law for reals since 2005. So sue me ....

His Stigness > Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud
05/27/2016 at 21:52

Oh the Pilot was definitely a dick, but the Subaru should never have been tailgating in the first place. But, we've all done it, which is why you need to pay attention and know how to actually drive. What if he hadn't been brake checking but did a panic stop? The same thing would have happened because obviously this guy can't drive very well.

Steve in Manhattan > JDIGGS
05/27/2016 at 21:58

No, I said don’t brake abruptly - tap the brakes to show ‘em your tail lights. Otherwise, don’t engage a tailgater.

SteveLehto > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 21:59

So many questions: What is with the lame fake morning show topic on the radio?

Oh, the car crash? There was no contact with the car in the front? I would say there is going to be a tough argument to be made that the accident was the fault of the front car. The car in the rear was clearly traveling too fast to be following that close - i.e., Which is why it went out of control when hitting its brakes.

But, of course, this may hinge on state law and I was too busy listening to the morning show chatter to notice what state the plates were from.

P.S. When you are road raging (which applies to both cars here) mellow out or you may wind up in the ditch, upside-down.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
05/27/2016 at 22:05

One of the commenters in the thread says this took place in Michigan, so you are perfectly placed to say what might happen in court. Of course, as we lawyers know, what should, or might happen in court isn’t necessarily governed by the law.

SteveLehto > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 22:10

Those could be MICH plates. I saw a “3 Mile Rd” sign so it could be over by Grand Rapids.

Be that as it may, the no-contact between the vehicles is going to be a problem for the crash car. Yes, you can argue that the person in the front was doing something wrong with the brake-check but you can just as easily argue that the crasher was not following at a safe distance.

A few seconds earlier, the front car even brake-checked the first time. The following car should have seen this coming and backed off. I’d still put my money on fault with the crash car.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
05/27/2016 at 22:21

That Subaru (crash car) is certainly totaled, and the insurance company will almost certainly find the video online. I would not like to be that policyholder arguing I was in the right.

SteveLehto > Steve in Manhattan
05/27/2016 at 22:44

Oh, I was going to mention that. The video certainly will NOT help the crash driver’s insurance claim.

Steve in Manhattan > SteveLehto
05/27/2016 at 23:14

If you didn’t post it, you could just say - oops, lost control, rolled it, so sorry. Tire blew, felt like the suspension snapped, oil patch .... Your rates would go up, but you wouldn’t have your claim denied.

Ultimately, the good thing about this is that nobody died or was seriously injured. No wonder the Car Guys recommended Subarus a lot.

SteveLehto > Steve in Manhattan
05/28/2016 at 08:26

“A small child wandered out into traffic and I had to swerve to avoid it. When I came out of consciousness, the child was gone.”

Nimbus The Legend - Riding on air like a cloud > His Stigness
05/31/2016 at 12:35

yea, for sure they both did things they shouldnt have.

I just dont understand people sometimes, they want to follow you stupid close, but dont want to be followed anywhere near as close.

In sub 25mph stop and go traffic, i always leave a half car length, or just long enough space for a smart car or fiat 500 to fit in between me and the other car. I also brake when the person in front of me brakes so that i dont close the gap unless we are under 5mph and coming to a complete stop. But people will ride my ass like there is no tomorrow!

Occasionally on the flip side, some lameo will go way slower than the 25mph flow of traffic and while i still try and maintain that half car length, sometimes they feel that even a half car length is too close and really come to a crawl, like 5 mph, all the while there is no one in front of them.